Venues provide critical points of contact between artists, fans, and increasingly, brands. Yet it seems venues – and the people that run them – are often left out of the conversation. The purpose of this interview is to get an update from a small-mid sized venue in respect of recent developments in the live music industry, and where the onus of responsibility for its future development lies.
We caught up with Sacco, co-founder of 390 Bar – a 250-capacity venue that sits on a quaint street in Changning district – and owner of Uptown Records, one of our favourite (and only) record stores here.
(ChaCha supporting Nite Jewel, Oct 2013)
Radar:
Earlier in the year we attended Sound Of The Xity Expo in Beijing. One of the key live music takeaways we left with – at the independent level at least – was that whereas before there were clearly demarcated responsibilities for each stakeholder (promoter / booker / venue), now we’re seeing venues like MAO Livehouse and On Stage in Shanghai, Yugong Yishan in Beijing and Dada etc proactively book and promote shows (sometimes through ancillary businesses).
Do you see this as a burden for venues i.e. they’re picking up the slack in areas where consumers are underserved, or is there another reason venues are becoming so proactive?
Sacco:
Whereas before, a bigger venue like [MAO Livehouse] would be pretty much just rented out….I would say that [this] has to do with (especially in Shanghai) the lack of people willing to spend their own time and their own money to put on full shows. Shanghai has a really limited amount of bands, I would say, with foreign and Chinese bands combined that are playing regularly, I don’t know, it’s probably between 20-30 or so. It’s a very small number for a 20 million population city.
So if you want to talk about bringing in bands from Beijing or outside of China, then you’re talking about putting up your own money, and then of course doing the work for promotion and all that stuff, and there doesn’t seem to be a lot of people either in local bands willing to put up the money, or just regular fans willing to do that as well.
Radar:
So are you taking on more of the risk as a venue owner?
Sacco:
In the past year and a half as far as live music goes – my venue is kinda just [a backup for] whatever’s coming through town or whoever wants to put a local show on when the other 3 or 4 major venues are booked.
Yuyintang is usually booked out 2-3 months in advance now, which is not a bad thing. They’ve built up that reputation over 7 years and so they obviously have to do a bit less – they still do promo their own shows, but they don’t put on as many of their own shows I’d say, except from maybe their own open-mic nights and stuff like that.
[390 isn’t] a full-time live house like On Stage. On Stage would be a full-time live house, and since On Stage is run by the JZ people they are more proactive about doing their own promotion. I would say that’s because it’s taken them longer to build up a regular following and also, I think JZ, since it’s a very big organisation with their Jazz club and their school, they’re more used to doing their own promotion work and stuff like that. I’ve heard that they kind of refuse to do just regular local shows. Then again, that’s where my club comes into play.
I think anywhere, clubs just naturally form where they belong in the functionality of a scene. And then it depends on who you’re working with – who works within the club. The YYT people have worked pretty closely with the music scene for years and so that was also kind of natural. But they definitely used to do more of their own booking quite a bit…they had to seek out people for the first few years.
(Baths performing @ 390 as part of JUE | Music + Art 2014)
Radar:
Leading on from those comments about On Stage, to what extent does booking and promoting shows provide an opportunity for venues to brand themselves and the experiences they’re trying to provide?
Sacco:
On Stage is a prime example, because On Stage is a full-time live-house basically, and they are already coming from a different type of brand. You know, [the owners] do the JZ festival, and then their other jazz club events. So yeh it definitely seems like they want to be a major player, and participate in Shanghai music basically, even though they don’t have the club size of MAO. On Stage comfortably fits 3-400 people when MAO can get up to 800 or more if you really pack it in.
I think they have – whether you do or don’t like it – a specific idea of what they want to do, which is mostly a lot of Chinese, Taiwanese, and even [artists from] Hong Kong, and more post-rock stuff (which is huge here) that is geared towards a Chinese audience – which is good, which is refreshing to see since they actively seek that out. But on the other hand, it can be perceived as elitist or not supportive, since they refuse to do some local stuff, or maybe to take a chance on a touring band that they don’t know.
Radar:
Lue ZhiQiang (Founder of Yugong Yishan Beijing,) and Leo de Boisgisson (Co-founder of Kaiguan Culture) commented at SOTX expo that they believe there is too much foreign talent coming in to China. On the flip side, the number of shows by local artists is declining.
Are you also seeing this bias in bookings and do you have any suspicions for why this is? And furthermore as far as supporting local artists goes, how involved to you think venues need / should get?
Sacco:
Yeh, I mean that’s…I don’t know if it’s hurtful, to be honest it’s true… does it make local promoters and local bands more lazy about trying to build their own scene? I don’t know if that’s true, that’s one of those things you really don’t know. You’d only know if you stopped booking so many foreign acts through here…
Radar:
To see whether locals would fill the gap?
Sacco:
Yeh, whether like “ok, since there’s no foreign shows maybe we’ll start our own band” or “maybe I’ll start putting my own show on”. Again it’s the same I think in the electronic and DJ world where some people assume “oh well, only foreign acts can get the good bookings’ and stuff like that. I don’t really take much stock into that because if you wanted to put on a show or if you’re in a band and you really want to put yourself in a show then I think the opportunities are there, so, it’s not like there’s a few people holding all the cards to get bookings. I would say it’s not hard to find a place to [perform] even if it’s a small bar or a warehouse or something like that, if you really wanted to you could put on a show.
Radar:
Yeh, especially compared to a saturated city like London where in many cases you have to pay to play
Sacco:
Exactly, if you were half-creative, you could find a venue and – maybe you’d have to bring some of your own equipment – but there’s more than enough opportunity to do it yourself.
The whole thing about foreign bands – or even like you know, Taiwanese bands getting preferred bookings – well, that’s just how it is. In every city in the world the bigger bands are gonna get the bigger clubs easier, and so it’s the job of the promoter or the band to be creative and to do it themselves.
Radar:
Is there anything in particular 390 is doing to support grassroots talent?
Sacco:
We’re just, at the moment, catering to those bands that want a show and also, like anyone coming through. I wouldn’t say we’re really actively searching for different talent like that.
But with my record store I’ve wanted to start doing more shows like that because at my record store there’s no money constraint. Basically there’s only a time constraint – we need to be closed by 10. But we don’t need to make any money from the bar or anything which, you know at my club – if you want to do a Friday show, we would hope to bring in at least anywhere from 80 -100 or 70-100 people. So there is some money constraint as far as the minimum amount of people we would want to do, but at my record store there’s not. I would like to find somebody – either probably try to steal one of your Wooozy DJs or somebody that would want to put on regular weekly shows that are free and that are directed towards these bands that don’t do the work to put themselves out there. So I would like to work with more of that.
(A pic we took whilst celebrating Record Store Day @ Uptown Records)
Radar:
We heard you were thinking of doing a zine…
Sacco:
Yeh, well I guess that would be an example of supporting the scene, where the concept is it’s either two Chinese bands, or one Chinese band with one foreign band, and it’s a vinyl record. The vinyl record comes with an interview of each band with a couple of DIY articles and information on the few [record stores] (there’s about 5-6 across China) that actually care about independent music, so it’s kind of like a time stamp of what’s going on in the scene…
Radar:
Kind of like an archive?
Sacco:
Yeh, like an archive. The problem with zines is [competing with digital], but since it has a record included in it I feel people are more likely to keep it longer, even if you have just a small record collection, you’ll throw it in with your few 7” or 12” collection. I think it’s a neat thing to both try to promote [live music and] physical media in China, which is not really a thing anymore …coz no one pays for music…
Radar:
[Well arguably they never have been right?]
Sacco:
Yeh, and to honest with you like…the whole idea of physical media is also a new idea to spread [in China], which you know, especially if you really like the music, could be something that grows.
Radar:
We previously wrote * that to guarantee the future of the live music scene here in China, we need to work to promote the experience, the feelings and cultural significance behind going to shows. We need to establish the idea of paying for experiences. Do you agree with this or are we being too western-centric?
Sacco:
In relation to live music, I don’t see much of a change at all. I don’t think it has much to do with money…obviously it seems like there may be an increase in the club scene with people [participating in] that like, more generic [experience] where you go and hang out with your friends at a table, you know and there’s maybe bottle service and something like that, but in the five years I’ve been here going to shows it doesn’t seem like there’s been, definitely not more, and for the reason people go to shows, I don’t think it has anything to do with money.
…money seems to be a really secondary thing as far as if they’re just interested or not, and the primary focus should be on getting people interested and, that takes like I said, work from promoters and people who like this kind of music, whatever kind of music it is. It takes more people getting active to try to get other people excited about it to come to shows and try to get those people excited and have like a domino effect that way.
The whole process of human connection is an important part of music and that’s kinda what the record store is about too and why I opened up, because it’s nice to have a place where people can go and maybe get turned on to music they wouldn’t usually get turned on to.
Radar:
You’re basically creating environments for discovery
Sacco:
…yeh creating the demand and the want to participate in music in a real setting, that’s what needs to be encouraged.
Radar:
Any upcoming projects or developments you’d like to share?
Sacco:
As far as July and August going forward, we’re gonna pretty much do at least one or two bands every Friday, so if you’re looking to book a show or would like to check us out, please follow us on Weibo or check out the website.
Also look out for the record store Uptown Records, hopefully we’re going to start doing weekly shows as well, either maybe daytime shows on the weekend or also Friday early evening shows.
* Excerpt
[We] would rather efforts were prioritised toward bolstering the arts and nurturing a culture that accepts payment for experiences (recorded, live, online broadcasts, whatever) as the norm instead of penalising learned behaviours.